Is this E 38 a smart buy?

[Latchdaddy]

Hello All, this is my first post and want to say you all are strong community. I hang out at Cruisers Forum as well.

Today, I went and looked at this E 38 today.
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/54015
Her name is Rainbow and she's been left alone for over a year or more since her owner died. While the price seems good as compared to others I see listed, she does need a lot of work - at least cosmetically. I have not had a survey performed yet.
The motor is original. The AC was removed. The electronics are original. The port windows are all frozen and murky. Her gel coat has cracks all over the deck with lots of dings/gouges. The last known significant repairs were 4 years ago.
She has sailed to the BVIs when she was new. She has not received TLC in my opinion. Standing rigging looks decent, as do the sails. Interior is musty and wood work is scratched up. Head reminds me of my great grandmother's house. Cushions are gone, curtains stained. Seems to have been a small pool of water near the Nav station that rotted the plywood - not the floor. No water stain marks to be seen, except in that one area. New batteries, Looks like everything powers up.

My question is how close to Bristol could I get her to, if I spend a total of $50k including the cost to buy her? My plan is for this to be my starter boat and to work up to coastal cruising and race at the club (HYC)

I have a reputable surveyor lined up and I like the broker.

I realize this hard question to answer, yet any comments or advise would be appreciated.

Lathdaddy

 

[Christian Williams]

Well, $20K might get you close, if you can do all the work yourself. Pretty tough assignment, though, if you have a job.

For what it's worth, a 38-foot boat is not a starter boat, in my opinion. A big bite to chew.

 

[Loren Beach]

It appears to be a model 381, and that's a model variation that I like.
Given that photos always make every boat look better on the internet, being able to see massive mold on the interior surfaces is scary.
Lot of work there and it looks like a boat that would likely need a lot of deferred maintenance done.

I recently got a "ball park quote" for replacing port lights at reputable yard -- about $1K per port, parts and labor. Rotten foam cushions and shot covers -- better plan for about $5K plus, for a new interior. And so it goes.

Cleanup is just labor, yours... but no direct $ cost.

Plan for a keel re-bed and total re-rig, if not done before.

The list goes on.... That model is a fine starting point for an offshore-quality performance cruiser, but this particular one is a ways from crossing the bar or the starting line, IMHO.

Regards,
Loren

 

[u079721]

Without a survey we can't see any red flags from just the photos. But I get tired just thinking about bringing a 30+ year old boat back from years of neglect. Are you knowledgeable (and energetic) enough to do the work yourself? New cushions, new sails and canvas, new electronics, new wiring, all new hoses, new holding tank, new standing rigging, new running rigging, refurbished portlights, better ground tackle, and refinishing all the wood? It may not need all of this right away, but it will before you do any serious cruising or racing.

 

[Latchdaddy]

Not to Bristol

I spoke with the surveyor tonight and he's agreed to pro-rate an hour of his time before I commit to a full survey. The objective is to see if its worth it - i.e. how much - ballpark - can I expect to doll out. Another point he made - forget about bristol condition and to think 'above average'.

Everyone's comments are spot on;

I agree its not a starter boat per say - larger then really necessary and old with lots to do. The again if my aim is to be a bluewater cruiser, this boat can teach me alot ? Maybe how NOT to do it?
I don't expect to do alot myself, as I am full time employed. Yes, $20k won't get me there. So the price of the boat needs to come down?
Gutting the boat to some degree seems necessary but not throwing much away.
I appreciate the point about it being a good starting point for an offshore cruiser, albeit with lotsa to do before it gets up to spec

thanks everyone.

 

[bgary]

Buyer beware

$20k won't get me there. So the price of the boat needs to come down?

This can be a viable way to consider it, IMO. When I do an initial inspection on a boat, I keep notes about things that I see that I think will need resolving, and then try to estimate the cost. At some level, if you take the fair-market value of the boat as-is, and add the cost of all the things that need to be fixed, you have some basis for structuring a decision about whether or not you want to go any further. In other words, if you're looking at a boat that you could get for $20k, and it needs $30k of work, you're really looking at a $50k boat. Comparing that against a boat listed at $50k that *doesn't* need major work can be...illuminating.

Just for sake of comparison, here are three E38s under $50k...
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1983/Ericson-38-2458551/Redondo-Beach/CA/United-States
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984/Ericson-Ericson-38-2709616/Bathurst/Canada
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/Ericson--2875240/City-Island/NY/United-States#.VkgeettdG00

In my own case, I looked at a C&C-36 a few months back that had... "issues". When my notepad was filled, my estimate was that it needed about 15k in repairs to "cosmetic" issues (in no small part because many of the dings and cracks penetrated through to laminate or core); plus the standing rigging needed to be replaced, plus most of the fuel and exhaust systems needed to be replaced, plus the tabbing on the main bulkheads had cracked, meaning (at the very least) some significant glass work to the structure supporting the chainplates; plus all of the portlights needed to be replaced (which, on C&Cs, often results in fiberglass repairs); plus none of the engine instruments worked, telegraphing (at least) electrical needs and (possibly) that the engine had significantly more hours on it than claimed; plus there were a ton of "creative" owner modifications that would have required re-work or removal and remediation; etc, etc.

Within about 15 minutes I'd figured out that the costs to make the boat reasonably viable exceeded its $33k asking price. And that doesn't take into account other needed-but-noncritical things like sails, electronics, cushions, covers, creature comforts, running rigging, etc., etc. *IF* I could have gotten the boat for $25k, I would have had at least $60k in it by the time I was done "fixing" and ready to start "improving". Not counting the value of my own time. .... and there are some awfully nice boats out there for $60k.

Was it a pretty boat? Absolutely. Was it repair work I could do over time? Yes. Would I have ended up with a nice boat at the end of all that? Sure. But having that sort of calculus (or the opposite math - e.g., "in order for this to make sense, I'd have to basically get the boat for free") definitely helped make a decision clear(er)

As others have said, a 38-foot boat is not a "starter". But, on top of that, a "project" boat is going to suck up every bit of time and money you may have, for a long time.... and if the goal is to get on the water, there are far cheaper ways to do it.

At the end of the day, you have to decide whether she's "worth it" to you, based on your own priorities. But I'd argue that boats are living beings that whisper sweet nothings to our souls, and.... if you can find a way, just for a moment, to pull the emotions out of the equation and make a dispassionate evaluation of the time and money it would take to make her "bristol" - or even "above average - it can help you decide whether or not she's really "the one".

$.02

 

[lnill]

I echo Christians comment. Consider starting with something in the 28 foot range, learn on that, then move up. The cost of everything on a boat seems to be exponential as the length increases.

We bought a 38-200 4 years ago. It was our 5th boat in 25 years. We probably paid too much for ours but it was in very good shape and had just had the hull painted. Still, in 4 years I have well over 1000 hours of my own labor and over $30k worth of upgrades in the boat. Granted some of those upgrades a lot of people could live without (custom mattresses, redo galley with corian counters, etc). But others were pretty much due to buying a 30 year old boat (re-wiring, replace standing and running rigging, replacing instruments, new injectors and fuel pump).

We we are very happy with the boat. She is in really good shape now and frankly a lot more boat than we were able to afford any other way.

Good of luck with whatever you decide
Lee

 

[photobug]

I got to chime in and agree a 38 foot fixerupper is not a great starter boat. For their asking price you could buy a very nice boat in sail away condition in the 30 foot range.

I have raced on an E-38 and think very highly of them as a club racer and family coastal cruiser. However by the time you get this boat fixed up you may not like sailing or especially working on sailboats anymore.

 

[mkollerjr]

I think the 38 is a great starter boat. It was our first boat, now we are looking for something larger. We are thankful for not heeding some peoples advice of buying a smaller boat to start out with. Jump in and learn from the experience. This boat is easy to sail and it is safe. My partner, with little sailing experience, single hands it by herself.

I do agree with not buying a fixer upper as your first boat, unless you enjoy working on boats.

 

[Christian Williams]

What do things really cost?

Allow me to record here selected boatyard expenses from the Previous Owner of my E32-3, all 2010-2012:

Riley Marine :for battery charger, new bilge pump, parts and labor: $2,282.97
Ship's Store: replumb marine head with new hoses, Jasco valve, vent plate and labor: $1,048.85
Coast to Coast: rebuild exhaust system, new heat exchanger ($463.15 w tax), new raw water pump, fuel filters, coolant, oil and engine service: $2,448.56
Replace dockside power cord and pigtail: $140.46
UK sailmakers: remove and replace sun cover in jib: $650
Mary Ellen Rose: Replace backstay, new windex, install repaired jib :$839.69
West Coast Marine Electric: replace solenoid on starter, install NO. 8 wire, install galvanic isolator: $770.04
Ship's Store: overhaul hoses to rear through-hulls: $602.07
Ronnie, independent worker for cash: repack packing gland on rudder shaft: $325.
Rich of S and K Dive Servie: pull prop and shaft to install packing gland: $250
Boating Service of MDR: detail boat :$900
Install new teak and holly sole: $950*
Remove, reseal and reinstall four opening ports: $1500*
Refinish vertical surfaces: $1400
Teak, fastenings, sand paper, finishing materials: $800*

Yes, boggling. But these are typical costs of work done by unsupervised professionals.

In several instances (notably *), the billing was a ripoff. The * ports were r&r, but they were worn out, and the "resealing" probably took an hour. The new T&H* was installed unfinished. The PO was told varnish was optional and "probably should be done at some time in the future."

The PO was a nice guy who had no interest in boat systems or maintenance, and when he saw a problem he made a phone call.

That's expensive, which is merely a choice. More important, the work is seldom done right without close supervision by an alert owner.

You may notice I have not included my own boatyard expenses since purchase--which are in another even thicker folder.

 

[u079721]

Well I still think this particular E38 might involve a bit more work than most folks would want. But I don't see anything wrong with an E38 being your first real boat. When my wife and I got into boating we first spent five years with a trailerable Precision 23. When it came time to move up we figured a 27 or 32 footer would have all the same systems to maintain as a larger boat, but wouldn't offer us the range or livability to be able to spend a month aboard each summer. So we went right for an E38, and never regretted it. (Well, maybe except for the whole thing about the hull blisters.)

 

[EGregerson]

to sail or not to sail

question is: do u buy a boat to sail; or spend a year or 2 fixing up. If you can do the work...and enjoy it, this boat look like a real diamond in the ruff. I really caution to a serious survey; check keel bolts, rudder log and hull deck joint and hopefully the surveyor uses one of those infrared scanners to access how serious that gelcoat is. Beyond that. The teak 'flocking' will wash off. the folks that are freaked by it don't understand southern heat and humidity. In any case this interior finish needs to be refinished. Which will take many hours of sanding and a ton of stripper and sandpaper. But a new finish and a hatch ventilator will help control the mildew. I bot a boat that was ready to sail because i didn't want to spend a year fixing up. 2 months later it was totaled in a tropical storm; so i spent a year fixing it up anyway. But. The good part is you get your hands on virtually part of that boat. If you plan to cruise you'll be much better off with equipment that you installed and understand; wiring, plumbing, etc. Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[Martin King]

In terms of overall ownership, I think the least expensive used boat to buy is one that has been babied it's entire life. You pay more up front for a creampuff, but in the long run it's a better deal. You are out
sailing quicker, enjoying the boat instead of constantly working on it and or throwing money at it. It's also easier on a marriage, and that is no joke. Boats suffer benign neglect worse than just about any thing
else I can think of. Don't make the mistake of underestimating the amount of time and money it takes to bring a beater back to bristol. My 2 cents.

Martin

 

[Shadowdancer]

to chine in we just bought this boat

My wife and I just bought this boat and are very excited, I researched this boat and found that it has been maintained professionally for the last 15 years. Except for the last year when the owner passed away. The bottom is still being cleaned quarterly. I am having a full survey done next week and I'll let you know how it went. The boat does need some TLC. I have about a year before I retire and will work on getting the boat back up to prime. doing most of the work my self. I rebuilt a 38 ft Skipjack and was a charter captain for many years. I hope to take the boat to the Bahamas each winter and maybe further south. The Ericson is a stout boat and like any other boat will need upgrades and maintenance. Owning a boat is not cheap, Any way wish us luck.

 

[Loren Beach]

My wife and I just bought this boat and are very excited, I researched this boat and found that it has been maintained professionally for the last 15 years. Except for the last year when the owner passed away. The bottom is still being cleaned quarterly. I am having a full survey done next week and I'll let you know how it went. The boat does need some TLC. I have about a year before I retire and will work on getting the boat back up to prime. doing most of the work my self. I rebuilt a 38 ft Skipjack and was a charter captain for many years. I hope to take the boat to the Bahamas each winter and maybe further south. The Ericson is a stout boat and like any other boat will need upgrades and maintenance. Owning a boat is not cheap, Any way wish us luck.

Please share some pictures when you can. You can put them into your own "album" here also.

Loren

 

[Christian Williams]

I'm sure the sale is contingent on the haulout survey, engine inspection, rig check, and so on.

I just went through this on an E38, and am happy to compare notes.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Yes, will do