E27 Maximum Weight Capacity?

dansgiles

Junior Member
I am gutting and completely rebuilding a 1977 E27 with hopes of being a capable cruiser. I am wondering if anyone has an opinion of the maximum weight these boats can safely carry and what the optimum weight distribution should be. Focus right now is planning tankage but I’m not sure how much weight under the V- berth is too much. Would 30-40g of water, anchor chain and general storage be too much?
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
I'm not a naval architect, but the short answer is... probably not. You're talking about adding maybe 500-600 lbs of chain, tankage and water, equivalent to 2-3 people worth of weight. Might make the boat a bit sluggish, depending on where the weight is positioned, but I don't think it would be a safety factor.

For a more quantitative answer, there are two things to think about

-- PPI (pounds per inch immersion) is a measure of how much lower the boat sinks on its lines when weight is added. It takes the area of the waterplane of the boat (which can be estimated), and calculates how much water is displaced if that waterplane is pushed an inch farther into the water. Sailboatdata.com happens to provide a figure for the Ericson27, it says 659.24. So... adding 659.24 pounds to your boat will make it sit 1" lower in the water. Not a huge difference.

(edited to add: just for reference, 659 lbs works out to about 82 gallons of water...)

-- CG (center of gravity) and RM (righting moment) are, perhaps, more important as they indicate the stability of the boat (and its propensity to come back upright if knocked down). You can measure RM at the dock - before and after adding weight. And there are formulas one can use to convert the figure to something meaningful (e.g. a "capsize screening value"). But the big picture is, adding weight low in the boat "helps", adding weight higher up should be done reluctantly. Bonus points if the weight is low and in the middle of the boat, adding a lot of weight in the ends will adversely affect its motion in waves.

$0.02
Bruce
 
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dansgiles

Junior Member
Thank you Bruce! You’re exactly what makes this forum awesome!

The plan right now is to run the chain through a pipe as far aft as I can get it and having it drop into a custom chain locker below the V- berth low down instead of up high in the bow. 300ft (if I decide I need that much) of 5/16 BBB anchor chain is around 282#

As far as water goes, we’re thinking an integral 30 gallon tank under the rear compartment in the berth, that would be about 8 inches tall. I’ve measured the area beneath the cabin sole of a wrecked boat and estimate that at around 20-30 gallons, so another 240# directly above the keel and 240# slightly forward but low down.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
All boats heading on a cruise are weighted down with stuff, it's the nature of the thing. Distribution is more important than gross calculation, in my opinion. Ability to move stuff around--or discard it if not necessary.

Probably most important is the number of crew and the duration. One person is takes up little space. Four people require four times as much water, personal gear and their sea boots alone may fill the cabin.

A 27-footer--how many times will you take more than two? Is this long distance cruising, or weekends?
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thank you Bruce! You’re exactly what makes this forum awesome!

The plan right now is to run the chain through a pipe as far aft as I can get it and having it drop into a custom chain locker below the V- berth low down instead of up high in the bow. 300ft (if I decide I need that much) of 5/16 BBB anchor chain is around 282#

As far as water goes, we’re thinking an integral 30 gallon tank under the rear compartment in the berth, that would be about 8 inches tall. I’ve measured the area beneath the cabin sole of a wrecked boat and estimate that at around 20-30 gallons, so another 240# directly above the keel and 240# slightly forward but low down.
That sounds like alot of chain! Do you really need that much for the boating you plan?
We have the optional 19 gallon water tank under our v berth in our E30+. I can tell the difference in sailing performance when it's full, but I'm pretty fussy on sail performance. Most people likely wouldn't notice.
Frank
 

Gaviate

Member III
Distribution is more important than gross calculation,
Its True I think, if you're going to add enough gear to sink an inch or 2 deeper, I would want that sinking to be even, bow to stern. I would expect then, that boat handling should be consistent i.e sail trim, rudder forces, etc.. Even though heavier than your neighbor perhaps, the center of gravity and center of effort should be unchanged from original design.
 

dansgiles

Junior Member
Probably most important is the number of crew and the duration.

A 27-footer--how many times will you take more than two? Is this long distance cruising, or weekends?
Plan is for long distance, possibly live aboard. I am 5’7, 155lbs and my first mate is 5’3, 100lbs. We require very little space and creature comforts. I am a truck driver and I am used to living off grid in my sleeper cab for months when I work in the oilfields. We currently share a 400 sq ft tiny home so the transition to the boat isn’t going to be that big of a leap. The overwhelming majority of the weight will be in drinking water, batteries and sailing equipment.
 

ewj

New Member
I can say with certainty that if you put that much weight in the bow your handling will be severely degraded. I have an e27 with a bow roller, 22lb Rocna, 100' of 1/4ht backed with 100' of 1/2" 3 strand in front of the V berth and a Lewmar windlass. When I installed all of that it shifted the CG so far forward that the CG is now directly under the center of effort of my Genoa. This means that my main sail literally does nothing so it is impossible to heave to or balance the boat. I thought I would be ok since I also installed nearly 200lbs of lead acid batteries well aft towards the cabin entryway, my boat is wheel steering so it already carries an additional 100+ lbs in the stern plus I have a large solar panel and a second anchor with rode on the stern pulpit. I was wrong. Even with no water in the 14 gallon water tank or the 10 gallon holding tank under the V berth and even with 15 gallons of fuel well aft the boat is miserable to sail. Before modifications the boat sailed great and we took it out in 30kts with square 5' chop and heaved to and sailed on all points with no problem. After all that additional weight in the bow the boat can no longer heave to and it hobby horses like crazy. I am in the process right now of changing over to 35' of 1/4HT chain on 100' of 1/2" 3 strand for my rode. I hate to do it because I love my current ground tackle but it is simply untenable from a sailing standpoint having so much weight forward. I have noticed that the e27 seems VERY sensitive to fore-aft weight distribution. Since chain is very heavy and the bow is a very long lever arm carrying ground tackle on this boat is problematic.

On several occasions I have cruised for 2 weeks fully self contained on this boat with my wife. We easily could have stayed out an additional 2 or 3 weeks with the excessive provisioning that my wife generally brings on board. The biggest trick is water. Unfortunately the only good place to store it is under the v berth which shifts the weight forward even more. We carry Jerry cans with extra gas in the cockpit. On our first long cruise we were a full 3 inches over our waterline due to the additional 1000lbs of water, fuel, food, spares, tools, etc. Even heavily overloaded it still sails it just doesn't sail well (and expect a lot of hobby horsing which is a result of too much weight in the ends of the boat).

Just my $0.02 coming from someone who has been there and tried that. Hope this helps.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Now there's a first-hand report that helps answer the original question.

For what it's worth, water is one thing that can be stored in small units around the boat, and it's 40+ pounds for every 5 gallons.
 

dansgiles

Junior Member
I can say with certainty that if you put that much weight in the bow your handling will be severely degraded. I have an e27 with a bow roller, 22lb Rocna, 100' of 1/4ht backed with 100' of 1/2" 3 strand in front of the V berth and a Lewmar windlass. When I installed all of that it shifted the CG so far forward that the CG is now directly under the center of effort of my Genoa. This means that my main sail literally does nothing so it is impossible to heave to or balance the boat. I thought I would be ok since I also installed nearly 200lbs of lead acid batteries well aft towards the cabin entryway, my boat is wheel steering so it already carries an additional 100+ lbs in the stern plus I have a large solar panel and a second anchor with rode on the stern pulpit. I was wrong. Even with no water in the 14 gallon water tank or the 10 gallon holding tank under the V berth and even with 15 gallons of fuel well aft the boat is miserable to sail. Before modifications the boat sailed great and we took it out in 30kts with square 5' chop and heaved to and sailed on all points with no problem. After all that additional weight in the bow the boat can no longer heave to and it hobby horses like crazy. I am in the process right now of changing over to 35' of 1/4HT chain on 100' of 1/2" 3 strand for my rode. I hate to do it because I love my current ground tackle but it is simply untenable from a sailing standpoint having so much weight forward. I have noticed that the e27 seems VERY sensitive to fore-aft weight distribution. Since chain is very heavy and the bow is a very long lever arm carrying ground tackle on this boat is problematic.

On several occasions I have cruised for 2 weeks fully self contained on this boat with my wife. We easily could have stayed out an additional 2 or 3 weeks with the excessive provisioning that my wife generally brings on board. The biggest trick is water. Unfortunately the only good place to store it is under the v berth which shifts the weight forward even more. We carry Jerry cans with extra gas in the cockpit. On our first long cruise we were a full 3 inches over our waterline due to the additional 1000lbs of water, fuel, food, spares, tools, etc. Even heavily overloaded it still sails it just doesn't sail well (and expect a lot of hobby horsing which is a result of too much weight in the ends of the boat).

Just my $0.02 coming from someone who has been there and tried that. Hope this helps.
I appreciate the first hand experience! How much of that hobby horsing do you think can be fixed by shifting the chain locker to the forward compartment under the V berth? I don’t plan on sleeping up there so a pipe down the middle won’t be too big of an intrusion.

Also, money, time and difficulty no object, how would you set up the interior to be the most balanced for long sails?
 
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ewj

New Member
I appreciate the first hand experience! How much of that hobby horsing do you think can be fixed by shifting the chain locker to the forward compartment under the V berth? I don’t plan on sleeping up there so a pipe down the middle won’t be too big of an intrusion.

Also, money, time and difficulty no object, how would you set up the interior to be the most balanced for long sails?
OHhhhhhhh.... Now you've done it... I have been working on this very problem for many, many years. So far I haven't managed to convert my e27 into a Crealock 37 but I'm still working on it! :)

Seriously though I do have a few thoughts to consider:

First, rethink your chain/rode/ground tackle situation. It is going to be your biggest nightmare from a weights and balance perspective. I chose to use 1/4" HT chain for several reasons that you may not have thought of. First, 1/4"HT has a higher working load than 5/16" BBB so it is stronger. Second, it is lighter at .75 lbs/ft vs 1.1 lbs/ft. Third, it is more compact which is important not simply because it takes up less space but because it determines how much chain you can actually have in your anchor locker due to the required drop for your chain. I don't know how much experience you may or may not have with chain fall into an anchor locker but basically you need to have a minimum amount of vertical drop in order for the chain to pull itself down into a neat pile rather than simply backing up and jamming your windlass. If you don't have enough drop you will constantly be fighting with the rode at the two worst possible times; when you are trying to pick up your anchor (because you have 2 minutes before a container ship is going to run you over) or you are trying to drop your anchor (in chop and gusting winds as you are desperately attempting to maintain control while drifting wildly through a crowded anchorage).

Which smoothly segments us into the idea of using the forward storage area under the V-berth as a chain locker... I am guessing that you can see where I am going with this... As mentioned above there is a minimum dead vertical drop required for your anchor chain to behave itself and that drop is roughly 12" in this case. I am not sure the exact space under the V-berth that you were referring to so I will address both. The enclosed "storage tub" space all the way forward under the V-berth that is separated from the raw hull is only about 12" deep if I recall (it is about the depth of a paper towel roll). So if you were to run a hawsepipe into it from the forward "chain locker" bulkhead it would have several feet of horizontal run right before entering into the space which would increase the requirement for an even greater vertical drop. If you used the smallest pipe you could get away with (probably 2" PVC) you now have only 10" of drop coming after a significant horizontal run. As soon as you put 5' of chain in that space your drop is now 8" (since the chain is now stacking up) and the more chain that goes in, the less usable drop you have. In a nutshell, the chain will very quickly pile up in the tube. If you intended to bisect the V-berth itself with a pipe running right through the middle from the ceiling then maybe it could work but that vertical drop is required even when the chain locker is full. If you were thinking of running the chain into the bare hull then once again you would need to run a hawspipe with a horizontal component into a dedicated area in the hull that would contain the chain and keep it from flopping all over the place in big chop. I am not entirely convinced that this can't be done- especially if you don't care about the usability of the V-berth. The placement of the chain would undoubtably be much better as it would be much lower and significantly further aft. I suppose the only way to know for sure how much chain you could get away with would be to try it.

Next- anchors. I am using a 22 lb Rocna which I love with all of my heart. It is absolutely a heavy storm anchor for this sized boat. It is designed to hold a 13,000 lb boat in rough conditions. The nice thing about modern anchors is that they have much more holding power for their weight than traditional anchors and they work better in different bottom types. There is no reason to try to go bigger because there is nothing you could attach this anchor to on your boat that wouldn't tear out long before this anchor let go if it was set properly. That and there is no way you could carry any heavier anchor out on the bow without weight issues...

3rd- the windlass. I can absolutely guarantee that you will need a windlass if you have all that chain. Many people don't realize that you have to consider which windlass you are going to use while you are determining your anchor and rode combination because windlass gypsies (the pully that the chain and/or rope run over) are specific to an exact size and type of chain and rope. Not all windlasses have the right gypsy for your desired combination. You need to find a windlass that A.) matches your chain/rope combination, B.) is strong enough to haul your ground tackle up reliably, and C.) fits on your boat. Unfortunately windlasses are not light weight items so that adds even more weight on the bow. I chose a Lewmar Fisherman Pro horizontal deck mounted windlass with a 1/4"HT / 1/2" 3 strand gypsy. It is a beast and we have pulled the bow halfway into the water when we caught a snag once. It is designed for bass boats but works spectacularly on an e27 and is one of the lightest weight and most powerful windlasses that you are likely to find.

SOooo... that is all fine and good but what would I do if I could do anything??? Ideally I would probably try to mount my windlass up near the mast, run a pipe along the foredeck to the bow roller, Run a hawsepipe down along the bulkhead between the V-berth and head and create a chain locker just inside that bulkhead under the V-berth. Chain is heavier than water so I would shift the holding tank forward a few inches to accomodate the new chain locker. It would look like crap but I could keep my oodles of heavy chain since it would be much, much lower and much further aft for balance. It might even make the boat more stable.

But I am writing a novel here and haven't even gotten into tankage and the like yet... I will post my thoughts about tankage tomorrow.

Hope this gives you a few tidbits to ruminate on.

Fair winds!
 

ewj

New Member
But wait! There's more! :)

I forgot to mention that the 300' of all chain rode recommendation for cruising boats is based on a go anywhere world cruising boat with 10' of freeboard anchoring in 25' of water (25' depth + 10' freeboard x 8:1 scope =280' + 20' to get from roller back into chain locker = 300'). Keep in mind that a boat with 10' of freeboard is probably in the 20-30,000+ lb range and probably has anywhere from 6 to 10 feet of draft. An E27 has under 4 feet of draft with about 4' of freeboard and can get MUCH further into the anchorage where it is shallower (say 15') and much better protected. So for an E27 you would have 15' depth + 4' freeboard x 8:1 scope + 6 feet to locker = 158'. Also anything over about a 7:1 scope is basically worthless as you will not gain any additional holding power and with a boat that only weighs in at 7000 lbs (overloaded) you will find that snubbers give you all the additional shock absorbption that you need. I have not anchored my E27 in anything deeper than about 15' because there is rarely any need to and the most rode I have ever used was all 100' of my chain in a notoriously bad holding anchorage in very bad conditions (bottom = bowling ball sized river cobbles, wind 25kts gusting to 35+kts, 2.5knt current and significant chop). We may as well have been welded to the bottom and this is an anchorage that nearly everybody drags in even on the mildest days. My point is that 100' of chain backed by 100' of rope rode with snubbers is an absolutely bombproof ground tackle setup for this boat for the worst conditions you are ever likely to encounter.

On to tankage!

Water is a pain in the butt to store because it is heavy but it does have the advantage that it can be broken up and distributed all over the boat. On a completely empty E27 I have noticed that there is a tendency for the boat to list to port slightly probably due to the galley and additional furniture and trim on that side of the cabin. My dad had a stripped down E27 with a tiller that was set up for racing and I have an E27 with a wheel that is set up like a tramp steamer and believe me when I say I have compared the two side by side on more than one occassion. Oddly the list to port appears to become more prevalent as the boat is loaded down. I suspect this has to do with the CG inching up (with respect to the hull shape- not the waterline) as the boat is loaded which affects the primary stability of the boat and makes the boat more sensitive to imbalance. The practical effect is that you may want to consider that when deciding on where you are going to store your water. On our long cruises we tend to completely fill the rear quarterberth - which is on the starboard side - with food, extra water jugs and supplies with the water jugs forwards towards the cabin entrance and as close to centerline as we can get in that location. This helps counterbalance the overloaded bow due to the stupidly oversized ground tackle, the full 14 gallon water tank under the Vberth slightly favoring the port side, the dingy rolled up on the foredeck just in front of the cabin and the inherent list to port and by doing this we sink pretty evenly on our lines. You mentioned that you don't use the V-berth for sleeping but I have tried sleeping on the setees and they are too narrow even for a 5'10/ 150lb skinny guy like me so if you intend to use the quarterberth for sleeping I have no idea where you could possibly store a few weeks of cruising supplies. That said, we try to use the water from the tank first and the water in the quarterberth last. I would love to somehow put a water tank midship under the cabin sole but it is too shallow to be practical and you can't just tear out the entire cabin sole to put it in as the floor is a structural part of the boat. Also it should go without saying that you will want to conserve water whenever possible. Use seawater for doing dishes, use wipes instead of fresh water for bathing, use raw water for the toilet, etc. I installed a neat setup on my boat where I can switch between raw water or fresh water for flushing the head and I have raw or fresh water options for the sink. Don't underestimate just how far that can stretch your water budget. Also remember that you can bring food that already has water in it- like canned soup for instance. That also extends the fresh water that you have on board. The easiest water to store is the water that you don't need to bring in the first place.

Tankage for fuel is another thing to consider. When I originally bought my boat the previous owner had already torn out the original gas tank under the cockpit. Since the only way to replace that tank in its original location is to literally chop the back off the boat I did the next best thing and glassed a shelf into the port side of the hull in the port lazerette and installed a custom 14 gallon fuel tank on it. It is not ideal from a weight and balance point of view but it was the only practical option and I have been quite happy with it. The only time the tank is completely filled is when I am heading out on a long cruise at which point I carry an additional 15 gallons of fuel in jerry cans in the starboard 2/3 of the rear cockpit well which nicely balances everything out. Obviously you never want to carry gasoline inside!

Now going back to your cost/time/effort having no limit, in a perfect world I think I would just make a mold of the hull, layup a new E27 entirely in carbon fiber and kevlar, stick a cantilevered carbon fiber mast on it to eliminate all the standing rigging (which would help greatly with hobbyhorsing, weight and flaky chainplates), buy titanium anchor chain, and put a trailer hitch on a fold down swim platform so that I could tow a solar covered barge with all of my cruising crap on it! :)

Either that or start with a more appropriate long term cruising platform and spend my unlimited time/money/effort making that into a true blue water cruising boat... Nah! Where's the fun in that!?

I am new here so I was just wondering if there is some sort of award given to the most verbose poster of the month... :)

Fair winds and following seas from S/V Hippo!
 

dansgiles

Junior Member
I am new here so I was just wondering if there is some sort of award given to the most verbose poster of the month... :)

Fair winds and following seas from S/V Hippo!
Thank you so much for your experience. I will definitely be spending a few more hours this week measuring and brain storming. Luckily the boat is on a trailer in my yard so I’m not wasting money on marina fees during the rebuild. Best course of action I think will be to get the boat bare minimum lake-worthy and spend a few days shifting weights around and testing before I commit fully.

I’ve attached a picture of my inspiration for the anchor locker relocation. I also didn’t realize the cabin sole was a structural part of the boat. I know there is two stringers down there (which need to be replaced)
Picture 2 is the area underneath in my wrecked parts boat.

As for sleeping in the settee, a previous job has given me the gift of being able to sleep anywhere, so I figured a leecloth would make for a cozy sea berth and a pull out would make a big enough double berth for while on anchor.
Picture 2 & 3: inspiration for pull out, given by another Ericson Yachts Member
 

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ewj

New Member
I am certain that your anchor locker relocation idea would definitely be an improvement over chain being stowed directly in the bow. Your drop looks good which is one of the most important considerations other than actual location and total weight. I am not sure if it would move the CG of the chain far enough towards the design CG of the hull to allow for all of the chain that you want to carry but it is absolutely a step in the right direction!

I feel like I haven't beaten the hobby horse to death yet so I just wanted to mention a few more things about it. The tendency to hobby horse is not a result of the boat being unbalanced or overweight. It is a result of the boat having too much inertia for the damping forces of the hull. Since that is engineering-speak I will translate into normal English: too much weight at the ends of the boat. Imagine a weight on one end of a very thin, very rigid one foot long stick. The other end of the stick is attached to a solid wall with a hinge so that the stick can pivot up and down. Now imagine that you hang that weight from the ceiling with a long spring that holds the stick horizontal when it is at rest and not moving. If you lift the weight up to say a 20 degree angle from the wall and let it go the weight it will start to bounce up and down and it will keep bouncing for a long time because there is nothing really stopping it other than air friction. If you put the entire arrangement at the bottom of a swimming pool full of oil and do the same thing it will quickly stop bouncing because of the damping effect of the oil. The drag of the oil pulls energy out of the bouncing weight much more quickly than the air did because the friction of the oil is much greater than the friction from air. That is known as the damping force. If you now increase the length of the stick but keep everything else equal including the ANGLE when you pick up the weight, you can imagine that the weight is now moving through a much larger arc (because of the longer stick) so you have effectively put more energy into picking up the weight so it will take longer for the oil to absorb that energy and slow the weight to a stop. Keep in mind it is the same weight with the same amount of drag, it is just on a longer stick. The combination of weight times the length of the stick is known as inertia. Now in the case of E27's and hobby-horsing what is happening is that the hull has a relatively fixed amount of damping force that is very much related to the shape and wetted surface area of the hull. In our case of a weight on a stick, the hinged point on the wall is literally the CG of the boat. The weight is the big blob of anchor chain. As we move that weight farther and farther away from the CG it becomes harder and harder to damp the motion once that weight is moved (say from a wave picking up the bow). At some point the damping force can no longer keep up with the energy being fed into the bouncing weight from the motion of the waves and you get crazy hobby horsing. The solution is to reduce the inertia by either shortening the stick or else reducing the weight (or maybe grow a thick mat of seaweed on the hull to increase damping force???). And inertias all add up for everything in your boat so if your heavy chain is way out at the end of the bow you will probably be tempted to put a heavy weight way out at the stern to keep the BALANCE of the boat but this doubles the bad INERTIA of the boat. For practical purposes you want the heavier stuff closer to the CG and the lighter stuff further from the CG. That way you have the same amount of weight but far less inertia so you will minimize the propensity to hobby horse. OK. Dead horse beat. Let's move on!

I LOVE that pull out berth arrangement! And I am SOOOO jealous that you have your boat in your yard to work on! I have 3 hours of total driving time in traffic to get to my boat and back home so it makes it very hard to work on it. :(

Keep up the great work! I can't wait to see what you eventually come up with! Maybe a 2024 E27 Mark 2! :)

Fair winds and following seas!
S/V Hippo
 

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
As I recall the Peterson 34 had a chain passage from the bow to a cockpit lazerette so you could store the weight of the chain low and closer to the stern.
 
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